It stands that we should be able to discuss our religions as we would any political party, industry or company.
Religion is very often politically motivated, and does offer many products and services. To some extent religion can be described as dealing in the market of beliefs. Its products are Gods, martyrs and prophets. Its services are rightly described, as services.
This article may make several mad. It was not my intention. It is important to remember it is hard to voice an opinion without treading on a few toes, and that you may have beliefs I would find offensive. Being silent about a topic may equate to being diplomatic, but it would be at the expense of truth, consistency and honesty.
As usual, you are able to anonymously outline your opinions below.
What I liked about Christianity
God
What's not to love about a fatherly figure that can answer all your questions?
Who knows? God knows. Problem solved.
Heaven
So, after we die, we go to a place that is cooler than anything you can imagine.
Yes, cooler than being reincarnated as a lesbian in a vat of whip cream sharing the day with every bi-curious female ever employed by Hugh Hefner.
So much cooler than that, that you'd be willing to give up pornography during this life for it.
Hell
Yes, Hell is awesome.
Not because you are going to go there, but basically everyone that is an asshole will go there.
The asshole used car salesman that screwed you over, the asshole that ran Enron and whatever asshole you can think of is most likely going to hell.
But, what if I'm an asshole? That doesn't matter. Just start repenting and you'll be fine.
Jesus
What a great guy. Honestly.
Goes around curing people, leading people to eternal salvation, and just generally saying a lot of great things that make you think.
He is even crucified and isn't extremely pissed about it. He died FOR YOUR SALVATION.
What kind of ignoramus would turn down such a selfless gift? Heartless cold people, that's who!
All the Good that Christians do
Land in any city in North America, and you'll find a Christian in some soup kitchen or some sort of outreach group.
If the local church isn't doing that, it's likely off in some crazy African country doing something commendable. If doing a bit of conversion while they're at it.
The Social Group
Churches are full of nice people. On Sundays, they show their best manners and dress quite nicely.
At a church on Sunday, nobody will tell you to eat shit. Nobody will jack your wallet.
What is more likely is they will offer to feed you or at the very least, give you coffee.
How great is that?
On top of that, if you belong to a church of any size, they likely have locations all across the country.
The church basically operates like a chain of Denny's that is only open on Sundays and only nice people are allowed in.
The Cheapest Form of Psychotherapy Available
Walk in, completely voluntary donation, walk out cheerful.
You can't do that anywhere else, unless you think paying at Tim Horton's is voluntary.
Why all that I liked didn't matter
God raises more questions than he answers
The universe is pretty amazing. So amazing, that it is hard to buy the answer "It all just happened". So, we say God made it happen.
But it doesn't really answer anything, as if the universe needed a creator, it would be implying that everything needs a creator.
Now then, who created the creator? "Nobody".
Well, if the creator doesn't need a creator, then we've already blown away the reason we state that God made it happen.
Again, if something of amazing complexity needs a creator, then a complex creator does as well.
The Lost Promise of Heaven & Hell
Nobody that believes in Heaven & Hell actually thinks they are going to Hell. If you thought for a moment that Christian doctrines irreversibly condemn you to Hell, then you would either simply cease to be Christian or go absolutely insane with grief.
And Hell inarguably exists if Heaven does. What exists without an opposite? Even if Hell did not exist as the furnace of our imaginations, it would then exist simply as inadmission to Heaven and eternal salvation. Hell could be burning eternally, or it could be like not getting in to an exclusive club. Either way, it would exist in some form - otherwise the atheists would receive eternal salvation, which wouldn't make sense.
So, if you're a Christian and are not insane, then you believe chances are good that you'll get into Heaven.
But look around at your friends. The Buddhist, the Jew, the dude in another flavour of Christianity and all the nice people you've met that aren't aware just what is at stake.
When you get Fed-Exed to the paradise in the clouds, there is no guarantee that everybody you like will meet you there.
If this is the case, is it a paradise at that point? Life on the clouds, without those you weren't able to convert?
Now I've heard different things from devout Christians on the matter, who's arguments in a nutshell are "It's God's will" and "He will explain everything, all will be right, trust his judgment that the good will be saved". This amounts to a special clause that may or may not let your friends in depending on some unknown criteria.
While my disembodied spirit might not have any problem with God's judgment and condemnation, it would then lead one to believe that their spirit is of a completely different personality than that you exhibit amongst the living. The rationale is that God has drugged you into seeing everything he has done is right.
It is the most likely case, as after feeding me a few shots of Tequila you could probably convince me that the Earth is flat and Jews are evil.
Jesus ?
What doesn't Jesus have going for him? He did many selfless acts, he could perform miracles and every word he spoke was profound.
To top it all off, he died young in unjust and sad circumstances. When you think about it, the story molds those of Princess Diana, Confucius, Martin Luther King, JFK and pretty much all the protagonists of history plus a lot of stuff about a loving God thrown in.
It's just so appealing, it's either true and Godlike or manufactured literature.
Take Paul of Tarsus for example. Paul is essentially the origin of the New Testament, as the earliest Christian writings are attributed to him. If you look at the Gospel of Mark and Matthew, which in religious circles are works attributed to disciples of Jesus, did not show up until 70 CE. All the Gospels effectively show up after Paul's death.
The earliest Christian writings remain in Paul's hands. The odd thing is, Paul never met Jesus. Jesus merely appeared to him in a vision. Luke, another great contributor to the New Testament, was simply Paul's companion.
The Gospels essentially have about 40 years of oral history. It is not really debatable as it would be hard to imagine every early Christian being literate let alone a proficient wordsmith.
At this point, there is no guarantees that all the Gospels aren't absolutely full of purple monkey dishwasher even though its the very first written record of what actually happened.
There were no Roman scribes writing stuff down and relaying how fantastic this Jesus guy was back to the Emperor. On one hand, we have a book that showed up decades later, and on the other we have a guy saw Jesus in a vision. The story of Jesus has similarities to that of Dionysus and Mithras as well as many other characters labelled "mythology". This prior art would lead us to question the credibility of a guy that sees dead people.
But for the sake of a hypothetical argument, let's assume the existence of Jesus is true.
There is no evidence to show that the Romans didn't believe Jesus was what we believe L. Ron Hubbard to be today. How can one be sure we are not following yesterday's Scientology?
There is still absolutely no evidence for the miracles or all the things Jesus claimed to be. When debating fashionable bullshit like Scientology, Kabbalah or the Raelians, Christianity has zero rational footing on which to stand.
If you're satisfied with being no more provably correct than Tom Cruise, that's fine.
But for humanity's sake do not come to the table with "intelligent" design pseudoscience, for it is the slippery slope to even more retarded claims.
The Myth of Friendly Christians
This is something that continues in our language every day. It is smashed into our heads.
The "Good, God-fearing man" versus the "immoral godless communist". Or, if you're Ann Coulter or her partner in retardation Dinesh D'Souza, the "immoral godless liberal".
You've probably read the title and assumed that this is trying to state that Christians are generally evil. No.
The statement is that Christian people may be Christian, but that does not mean that friendly people are necessarily Christian.
Seems obvious, but for some reason needs restating. Those that are friendly because they are Christian have nothing to brag about considering those that would be innately kind.
Now, if you don't believe someone could possibly be innately kind, then it is a real wonder how you're alive. Many of your ancestors were godless heathens, pagans, and ignorant illiterates. Yet somehow they managed not to kill themselves long enough that your generation came to be.
The best explanation for compassion from a scientific perspective is that reiterated by Richard Dawkins, where he states that our compassion to one another is nothing more than a glorious misfiring. Your compassion runtimes are actually meant for those of your own - that is to propagate your genes. If you weren't kind to your offspring, then you simply wouldn't have many to spread the evil name. When you are compassionate to those you share no bloodline with, it is a misfiring in the sense that you also have sex without the intention of procreation.
Those that rely on "God-fearing" or fear of any kind, to be good, are no good at all.
Those that are good and not fearful, are people of commendable conscience.
The Not-So Social Group
To not be a Christian means to throw away countless potential friends and support groups. However, not being a Muslim or a Jew does exactly the same thing.
The fact of the matter is, just because religions are the more well known and vocal groups in society, does not mean you will find anything fulfilling there.
Yes, you may form all the God cliques you want, but what will build lasting relationships is shared interests of a more tangible nature. Groups sharing concerns or interests in activities will have a devoted congregation with or without God. Just have a look at your local golf club.
The prominence and political power of churches may make them the only show to go to in some areas, but that doesn't make it worth supporting.
It's like a theatre that only shows Battlefield Earth, Waterworld and Children of Men. If people buy tickets, it doesn't mean any of these movies are worth seeing over and over again. It simply means everybody is bored out of their minds.
To anyone that has read and understood the Bible, which would include anyone described as an interested Christian, how is any sermon not the most predictable thing on Earth?
Saints as Shrinks
Lots of alcoholics and other people struggling with life's many difficulties often turn to religion for answers. Alcoholics Anonymous' 12 steps invoke a higher power a number of times. This isn't a surprising fact - countless self help books and motivational speakers do exactly the same thing.
The clinical approach is perceived as cold, unavailable or expensive.
But is religion actually contributing or playing a zero-sum game?
Sure, there may be an addict reading a copy of a Gideons bible in a hotel room that will kick the habit. But it's likely this fabled individual would have shed their vices anyways if they were motivated enough to read one of history's more driest literary pieces.
It's also very likely that the individual already had exposure to Christian teachings - in North America, it would be likely the person in question would even have a religious parent.
The religious upbringing could have had major negative effects on the the youth's socialization. This line of thought follows that American teenagers seem more likely to find themselves with alcohol poisoning than their German counterparts, and that homeschooled kids are generally weird.
This argument relies on the strawman that is the odd ill-socialized God-paranoid child becoming somewhat of a black sheep.
The points are quite valid, however, when the evidence supporting religion's helpful hand is nonexistent. One only needs to look at the days of prohibition vs legalization, secular democracies vs theocracies, or Bible-Belt America vs any other state or province to see the positive effects of having the church disappear. The idea that the creator compels recovery and prosperity is thoroughly debunked by every measure we have for society.
The best argument the church has for their good deeds is largely anecdotal evidence given by converts. They will all tell you they "lived in darkness and despair" until they "saw the light". The funny thing is that apostates say the same thing. (Well, until you shoot them)
Now, we've cleared up all the subjective reasons why one wouldn't actually enjoy religion as much as other people. It may give us reason to leave the church - but a bunch of subjective gripes about the church would not give us any ground on which to denounce religious teachings. Read on.
The Lies
Christians lie all the time. Maybe if it were a commandment, "Thou shall not lie, nor embellish, for the sake of religion" then less of a marketing machine would be supported by the church. The cover of most Christian content ought to be "Caveat Lector"
Prayer in School
This is by far my favorite lie. "They took prayer out of schools!" Christians shout from the rooftops. From Columbine to Virginia Tech, there is undeniably a Christian that believes there just isn't enough prayer in schools.
Is this actually true? At first hearing it sounds like a terrible injustice. Have we no right to hold belief? But no, it is a lie. Students may pray at schools. God knows they aren't learning much, and can use the downtime to mumble to whatever God or imaginary friend a child may have.
What was rightly removed from schools was led prayer. And what a fantastic thing! I can think of nothing more disgusting than a child forced to pray to a God they do not believe in.
It is a decidedly gross assumption to say that any child is of the religion of their parents. The idea that a Catholic family produces Catholic kids is as perverse as believing that fascist families only produce fascist kids - for where is Germany, Italy and Spain then?
Even if a child produced the mental faculties to express that they were Catholic and understood what that was - it would still be an affront to their sensibilities to be led into protestant prayer!
Family Values
Come election time, somebody will make noise to do with family values. "George Bush protects family values!" or similar cheer.
But what does it mean?
Absolutely nothing.
My family's values aren't equivalent to your family's values. My family may be a bunch of granola eating hippies while your family might be a bunch of caviar licking old coots.
As a political slogan, the term "Family Values" is so incoherent, incomprehensible and such a NO-OP that those reiterating it deserve a slap.
Society is going to hell
This statement also masquerades as "Will the Cruelty ever end?" or "What is wrong with the kids today?"
The Church is apt to tell those born yesterday that society is sinful and degrading and irredeemable.
Obviously this nonsense is a harder sell to those that have lived through the Great Depression and World Wars. We live much better today than ever before. People are more courteous, compassionate and educated than ever before.
This is not to say the world is fine, but, goddamn it, life is improving.
Miracles
If you flip the page of doom in the Christian cookbook there will inevitably be a recipe for miracles.
As if to counteract all the blame they put on worldly sin, they include miraculous deeds. For, as the marketing alludes to, all good can be attributed to God instead of coincidence and man.
Essentially, there is an all powerful guy in the clouds that performs miracles on a whim. According to the Bible, he did it every other week.
Modern miracles are absolutely unheard of, as if any single one of them had undeniable proof them that proof would also undeniably prove God, in which case one would not brave questioning religion. Maybe modern miracles do not occur because God is apathetic, asleep or dead?
Yet that does not fly, as an all-powerful being could awake and revive itself if it willed it. The likely answer that would not include proving or disproving a creator would be that humans simply understand. We no longer see miracles everywhere, just as we no longer depend on witchdoctors.
It also remains that any force capable of good and miracles is also capable of evil and suffering.
Attributing what you subjectively see as good to God and not that which you see as evil would be making God conform to your morality, which Christians claim the "godless" do.
Lying Jesus, CEO of God, Inc
What it seems to all boil down to is Christianity is operated by a bunch of vacuum cleaner salespeople.
Christianity is a propaganda train not because it is moral to be a politician or doomsayer, but because it is profitable.
Money talks. Buildings need heat and preachers need food. Who would buy a product if you were told you didn't need it, or that it wouldn't save the world?
If you are a Christian, it is your job to solve this problem. Refuse your support until Churches actually be honest with you and others. Speak up for what is right instead of tolerating what you know to be untruthful propaganda or empty language.
Send God back for a refund.
Comments...
Leo - holy long
Haven't read it yet, but "at the expensive" is not an expression.
sheldong - fixed
Fixed. Think of it as a free "iv".
I think my screwup to sentence ratio is getting better though.
I need to throw in some images or something.
w0p - WOW
Sheldong you have outdone yourself this time. This is a literary masterpiece. Just like the Bible.
Brian -
Interesting thoughts sheldon. A bit dragging in parts but otherwise well thought out. Unfortunately I agree with a lot of your critisms of the church but I think you missed a few points that are worth mentioning/correctin g.
On you're critique of hell. I think you're right. If hell is this burning sulfur pit were the scum of the earth end up and everyone else goes to float in some etheral fairy existance then no it's not exactly motivation to take it seriously. So I think that image of hell is mistaken. I'll come back to it though.
I've been reading this really interesting book by George Ladd lately that talks about the reign or kingdom of God. Meaning his soveriegnty, authority, ruleship.. whatever. So imagine this picture for a moment.
Theres this God and he makes some stuff. Satan comes and screws things up by introducing the alternate to God, sin. God's kind of ticked but puts into motion a plan to restore the ability to choose between living under the sovereignty of His rule or Satan's, namely Jesus. But aparently this plan doesn't take place all in one step. Jesus dies, and depending on who you talk to came back to life. This coming back to life shows that He defeated death which was a significant part of the consequence of sin and satan.
But that isn't the final stroke. At some point in the future Jesus is said to return again and some real funky stuff will happen that a lot of people argue about. At that moment though proper relationship with God will be possible. At this moment in time we are not living with the ability to live in a perfect relationship with God which is why sin is still here and things are still screwed up. But for those who are 'christians' this it is now possible to catch glimpses of this.
Thats about as far as Ive gotten in his book but I think its a pretty intelligent perspective.
Brian -
oh I forgot to revisit hell. suffice to say that I think it is simply the continuance of the selfsame existance that currently is. Perpetuated to eternity so that the sin in people is continuously maturing.
sheldong - hell, satan, etc.
Thanks Brian.
On Hell - yes I agree that the burning pits of lava and goat like demons are quite ridiculous.
The only reason I chose this view of hell to discuss was because it remains the most well-known. Your explanation of what hell could be is a lot more solid.
Yet I'm not sure how much we can bend the concept of hell before we start departing from Christianity. Coming from the Catholic end of things, any sort of departure is widely seen as some form of apostasy.
On Satan - I still don't quite understand why this guy exists. If God is the creator, then he created Satan, and if he was all-knowing, he would have known how Satan would use his free will.
On the rapture - as far as I've read, the rapture seems to be a quite a recent interpretation of the Bible. Many churches do not subscribe to the idea.
Whenever I start talking about Old Testament law and deeds of God, someone always reminds me of the "New Covenant" of God that Jesus brought.
However, my problem with this idea is that even if such a covenant exists, that it does not change the nature inherent to God as He exposed in the Old Testament. It would also make much of the Old Testament unnecessary, while people still seem to revere the Ten Commandments.
Mor e and more I'm wondering how much different our interpretations are from a few generations ago.
Do actual Christians exist in the same sense they did 200, or 2000 years ago? Or is what we're seeing an entirely new brand of theism?
Brian -
As far as departing from a given view goes. I'm not sure that it is really departing. We can know what early christians believed from their writings. Look at St. Augustine of Agrippas writings for example. A bit wordy at times but it's fascinating to see just how much of the same ideas and practices were present when he was alive in the 6th century. In fact I would recommend 'City of God' He basically looks at every issue the church faced then and has something to say about it.
As far as satan goes. Maybe God did know that he would go bad and created him anyways. It comes down to, do I not do something at all just because part of it will turn out bad, or should I go ahead with it and fix it when it goes to hell. I don't really know though, I get nervous putting words in God's mouth cause they can be misinterpreted so easily.
The whole covenant thing is quite large really. But it is the entire focus of the Bible and the underlying theme of Christianity. The old covanent was between God and the Jew. The Jews screwed it up all the time and God got pissed but calmed down after a while and forgave them over and over. Jesus brought the 'new covanent' and wasn't their to get rid of the old one so much as fulfill it. The old covanent was kind of like a patch until Jesus could come. So while some of the old laws are still valid. A lot of them that had to deal with cleansing and being pure are unecessary.
Leo - .
Just got around to reading this.
Unrelated, but I doubt you'd be convinced of the earth's flatness after some tequila. I get your point though.
>> It's just so appealing, it's either true and Godlike
>> or manufactured literature.
Funny how you chose to compare Jesus's story to JFK, Diana, and some other real people. If they are comparable (more than a little far fetched), why is the story of Jesus not believable?
Your point about miracles is a good one. In today's world, we require proof for things. So while unexplained things still happen quite regularly, and there is certainly no shortage of people crediting these events to God, they are not widely acknowledged to be such since they cannot be proven. The church (of whatever denomination) will not acknowledge third party miracles because it threatens their control over all things coming from higher up. If a church officially sanctioned something as a miracle today, and it was later proven to be a hoax, it would undermine their credibility. So they just don't do it. There is no chance of ever proving the old miracles false, so there is no danger there.
Today we have so much information at our disposal, that we can do background checks on stories, and then make informed decisions on whether to trust their validity. Several thousand years ago, if a you heard that some people had seen Jesus walk on water, you had no choice but to take their word for it, or reject it outright with no further research.
But while I agree with a lot of what you say, your argument - like that made in "The End of Faith" - hinges on the rationale we use in everyday life. While this type of argument makes a lot of sense to us atheists, it does not hold the slightest bit of sway over those that believe. If you have made the choice to believe in things that cannot be proven, things that may not be logical by our human standards, then why would an argument based on these standards of logic have any effect?
No matter how wrong religion can be made to appear from an empirical standpoint, such an argument can always be countered by the fact that God's ways are not like ours, and we cannot prove his existence based on our outlook of the world.
As soon as you bring someone all-powerful into the equation, all chance of a rational argument goes out the window. You cannot change a person's point of view using the very methods that they have rejected.
2+6 = God
Merriman -
In hebrew, Satan just means "the accuser" or "the adversary". Open a bible, you'll be astonished at how rarely Satan or Lucifer are even mentioned.
The modern day views of Satan and Hell were fabricated by Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno, respectively.
So, god didn't make Satan, John Milton did.
sheldong - much ado about satan
@Brian -
In many ways I can see where you're coming from. God must have an idea that Satan would go bad, else he's not all-knowing.
If God foresaw that Satan would go bad, does this not include some elements of predestination? Such predestination, or "God's plan", must be benevolent (meaning Satan is an ounce of evil providing a pound of good - whatever that could mean is unclear to us at this point). This fits nicely into God being all-loving.
But if God actually needs Satan as a tool for his ends, does that mean God is still all-powerful?
Why does God need a long drawn out plan (that he knows the ending to) to result in an all perfect ending? Isn't this limiting God's power ?
I don't see how the all-knowing, benevolence and omnipotence fits together in this picture we've painted.
@Leo -
"Funny how you chose to compare Jesus's story to JFK, Diana, and some other real people. If they are comparable (more than a little far fetched), why is the story of Jesus not believable?"
It is not that Jesus is equivalent to the story of these recent historical characters, it is that Jesus is so over and above these stories. The Jesus story encapsulates so much of each fantastic story - and extends them to new heights - that it is essentially unknown outside the world of mythology.
The works of Greeks and Romans of a similar era are widely seen as ancient curiousities - yet the story of Jesus, well that story is unquestionably TRUE.
Yet the Jesus story (a lot of it in Greek, remember) does not provide us any more evidence, any more objective reason to believe it.
"If a church officially sanctioned something as a miracle today, and it was later proven to be a hoax, it would undermine their credibility. So they just don't do it. There is no chance of ever proving the old miracles false, so there is no danger there."
But churches do do this. The Catholic Churches, for example. Recent saints or those on their way to sainthood - Mother Teresa, for example - must show that they've performed at least a few miracles.
The rest of your post surrounds the idea that the faithful are immovable.
I don't think is true that the faithful are immovable because they don't give any weight to logic, but moreso that those that value logic have essentially defeatist attitudes.
Religi ons have built their own atmospheres. BioDomes of thought, for those within it is hard to believe how people can live without.
The idea that "these savages can't be reasoned with!" has been around for centuries in many forms. It doesn't really change the fact that we eventually will have to reason with each other, and the discussion should never stop until one group is marginalized.
Eve n then, it should be widely repeated that such a move was made and why, as atheism is what we began with, why did we ever drop it?
@ Merriman
That is a good point and neatly outlines how ideas within religions are popularized (Rapture, Satan, etc) while others fall out of favor (homosexual-hating God)
Brian -
so I think it comes down to God's descision to give us a will of our own and to give satan a will of his own. He didn't have to but He wanted to for the quality of the relationship that will affords. so to answer:
"Why does God need a long drawn out plan (that he knows the ending to) to result in an all perfect ending? Isn't this limiting God's power ?"
It may have limited his power to have given us a will and to have a plan laid out but if so perhaps it was self limiting.
As far as the rejection of logic goes by those with beliefs I would hesitate to say that. I think if you look far enough down to the roots of any worldview, whether athiestic, or agnostic or christian you will find basic assumptions that must be taken upon faith or belief. You have to or you have no jumping platform from which to base all of your later assumptions.
I've heard debates on the subject before and seen both sides been torn apart. Is one more right simply because they can argue better and pick holes in another individuals argument. Who can say? I've read very convincing arguments for the belief in a God (check out CS Lewis or Lee Strobel to name a few). I've also read equally convincing arguments to reject God or Gods or whatever (see FSM or Nietzsche or the afore mentioned Sam Harris).
At some point you have to make a descision based on what you 'believe' to be true. This step is indeed a step of faith regardless of what world view you take. It is the belief that you're basic assumptions are correct and that the subsequent ideas based off of them are valid.
Merriman - Problem of Evil
As stated, Sheldon's brining up the old problem of Evil argument. If you accept the premise that evil exists in the world, then God can't be more than 2 out of 3 of the following:
all-kn owing (omnipresent)
all-c aring (omnibenevolent ... is that even a word?)
all-powerful (omnipotent)
Evil exists, so God either doesn't know about it, can't fix it, or doesn't care enough to fix it.
UNLESS you argue that simply having free will is more important than whatever suffering free will causes. This is where my philosophy of religion class started degenerating. We just went around and around again with the theists and atheists screaming at each other.
... but it leads into one of my favorite arguments. If God really is omnipresent, do we even have free will? If God knows everything, he knows the position of all the particles and subatomic particles in the world; their velocities, accelerations and trajectories; all of our histories, brain-chemistries; everything. So he basically knows exactly how we'll react to each and every situation before it even happens. So, if he knows exactly what we're going to do, we can't ever change any of our actions to fool him. So we're all reactionary beings and none of us have free will.
I can't solve either of these two conundrums, but for my money: If I have to pick a God that's only 2/3 of the above, I'd take the all-caring and all-powerful God. That way, he's likely to be a forgiving God, and I still have free will. Strangely enough, this situation seems to best match what's written in the bible. Take a look at the story of Job, God actually has to ask Satan how Job is handling his ever-increasing pile of misfortunes.
Brian -
Just for arguments sake... does knowledge of an action take away the persons ability to choose to do the action? If I know that Joe is going to go to class today does that necessarily mean that it is still his choice. I don't think that knowledge of what is going to happen takes away free will. God still has the choice to act on that knowledge.
Merriman - Free will
The argument goes like this: That depends on your frame of reference. Joe's view, its completely his choice. He can either go to class, or not. From God's view, though, Joe is just reacting to the circumstances based on past events, mood, standing in the class, etc. Joe is completely predisposed to a certain action as the events unfold, meaning there's really only one action he can take.
Although, someone in class argued about quantum mechanics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, and Chaos theory. They basically argued that no one can really know what's happening on a subatomic level, so nothing can be predetermined. Which, they argued, is enough to give someone free will.
Personally, I think humans are far more reactionary than we'd like to believe, but I don't go walking around thinking "Hey, none of this matters, because I can't change any of it, anyways" because that's a terribly depressing view of the world.
Someone else argued that free will could basically be the soul.
Brian -
Joe may be predisposed to a certain action but those predispositions are the result of other choices made by himself and other people around him. The people that raised him and the people he chose to involve himself with. So each choice is a culmination of previous events and even if they may be predictable, there is always the ability to say yes or no to certain action. This is more a personal belief I suppose and very hard to argue either point with hard facts.
However, this isn't the basis for my argument. I don't think that God predicts events based on past ones. I think he knows because he exists outside of time and see's all events at once. This might sound really airy but I think it has merrit. It also stands to reason that this is the case because time is really a physical constraint and to apply it to God is somewhat limiting if you take the all powerful all knowing view.
Now you can argue with this view. It's not based out of scripture. I believe it to not be contradictory to it but it is just an idea to help me visualize something about God's character. Just as our visual descriptions about an atom do not completely accurately describe its true behaviour so to this description may not. So take it or leave it.
Kat - yay I'm back!
I haven't been to your site in such a long time, Sheldon! It's so long to read this article and all of the comments but I did it anyway :) I am too intimidated to write a real response though... eek.
(But it's funny Stevie brought up the "all knowing god" thing because we were just talking about that the other day!)
max - GOD
i LOOK AT IT LIKE THIS:
Everything that is came from one of 2 sources:
Somethin g that popped out of the hole in the middle of a donut or 2 something that has always been.
Neither of these two suppositions is possible to our finite mental constraints: something cannot come from no-thing. but at the same time how can all that there is come from "something " that has always been !
And yet only ONE of the 2 can be true. The second proposition. Whatever you may wish to call that smething that has always been: I call it God.
I can't see any other rationale alternative to these 2 propositions: can you?
sheldong - max
max, you sound like you are a pantheist.
Other people use the term universe, for that which has always been.