Merriman - KyotoYou missed two huge things about Canada and Kyoto. Canadians need lots of energy to stay warm in the winter. Canada is also a very large nation, that relys on exports. So, Canadians need lots of energy for transportation.
If you look at the numbers, Canada was actually doing worse than the US at meeting the deadlines. Instead of decreasing consumption by a targeted percentage, consumption had actually increased. We were actually doing worse with regards to targets than the US was. The difference was, we were paying Kyoto lip service, and the US wasn't. Sheldon's right. If we had stayed involved with Kyoto we would've just been handing billions of dollars over to nations like China. Better take that money and apply it to the problem, not piss it away. leo - uffYou make some faulty assumptions right off the bat. First of all, consumption is not directly linked to emmissions and having more devices does not mean more consumption.
Cons umption is only one factor in emission of greenhouse gasses. You also have to factor in where your energy comes from and how efficiently you use it. So yes, in your case your greenhouse gas emissions have gone up, but what if during the same time you made your house more energy efficient and the energy you use came from more environmentally friendly sources (hydro/nuclear VS coal)?
Also your next argument is that you are using more technological devices which means more power use. This makes no sense, and the opposite is probably true. Let's leave the fact that keeping 3 computers and 3 TV's running all the time is pretty irresponsible and probably not true anyway for the moment. Think of the TV you had in 1991. Think of the computer. Both had bigass power hungry CRT's and were definitely not Energy Star compliant or had any sort of power saving modes. Now you're running a laptop as your main machine that uses a measly 30W on average and might have an LCD TV/Monitor or at least one that uses less power. I know I was using at least 5 times the power with my old desktop as I'm using now with my laptop. And this is a fairly power hungry laptop.
Same goes for your cars. Yes you have 3 cars in the garage, but one of them is a Prius, and the other one is fairly new. Both of them probably emit far fewer pollutants than the car you had in 1991. And it's not like you're driving them all at once.
As for your dismissive attitude of Peak Oil, I don't think that we'll all return to the stone age. That's a doomsday theory that isn't terribly likely. More than likely there will be a recession, and at the worst case, a depression, but we'll also put a fuckload of people on the alternative energy problem, and eventually solve it. However you say that you won't care about living without the luxuries that the oil age has given us, an idea I call bullshit on. When was the last time you didn't spend a day on the internet? Have you ever thought about the problems of planting your own food or the economies of scale involved in getting food to the Safeway?
I don't think we will return to horses and bicycles, but how you can say that it wouldn't matter if we did is beyond me. There is no logic there.
What works for China wouldn't necessarily work for us. China was forced into some sort of population control because they have way too many people. Canada does not. In fact we could probably do with an order of magnitude more and still be fine. Sweden, for example, thinks it can be completely independant of oil imports in 2020. (http://www.guardian .co.uk/oil/story/0,, 1704954,00.html#arti cle_continue)
Abo ut the VHEMT group, I agree. The earth alone is not worthwhile to preserve. The only reason I am interested in preserving the environment is because if we destroy it, we die. Or you can take the JW approach and say "who the fuck cares, we're all gonna be in paradise anyway soon." but that's a little whacko.
sheldong - the statsYou're right when you state that not all consumption is directly linked to emissions. It is also correct that the laptop I'm using is fairly efficient, especially when compared to 1990s computers.
But this doesn't mean that we should not be concerned about the amount of consumption, nor has it made a dent in the rise of per-capita consumption. [Link]
Now these stats don't make sense, given that a large number of people are using CFL lightbulbs, laptops, etc etc etc. Maybe more people are relying on the grid instead of other sources of energy for heat, etc.
Consumption isn't going to do anything but rise. The idea that we'll just figure it all out is very optimistic. [Link]
It wouldn't matter if we returned to horses and bicycles in the sense that nobody would die. Peak oil isn't going to kill us all, it's not the end of the world - as long as it doesn't prove to be a catalyst for war.
Whether or not China is overpopulated or not is kind of beside the point. We operate the country on somewhat of a pyramid scheme which is not sustainable.How long can it continue, and what will we do then? another interesting link: [Link] leo - asdtest Brian - I dont think it worked Merriman - Pyramid schemeI don't buy your "pyramid scheme" at all. The birth rate in Canada has been steadily falling, while the death rate has been remaining steady. Canada, and especially BC, is ahead of the game when it comes to hydro power, and there's a huge reserve of oil in Alberta. Plenty of time to put up some tidal, solar and wind generators before the peak oil crisis.
Then again, if you were really worried about any of this, you would be trying to fix the problem, instead of chewing up time and resources trying to fix your linear cock. Whoops. Clock. Sorry. sheldong - the pyramidWhat I'm saying is traditional thought is built upon a pyramid scheme.
Back in the day, if you had a farm you'd have a half dozen kids to hopefully help you out a bit as you age.
Nothing has really changed. People freak out about declining birth rates because they think everything from pensions to stock markets will fall apart without a youthful workforce. Furthermore, people over 65 are written off for the most part and seen as useless non-contributors.
Growth as we know it is largely based on a general increase in population - more shit is going on if more people are around.
Technolog y generally classified as "green" such as hybrid cars, tidal generators and whatever else will not do as great a deed to the environment as advances in medicine, education and contraception.
Bu t you're right, I'm not exceptionally worried about overpopulation because what is more likely to kill most of us is the next plague or religious conflict.
Even if we work around potential problems from overpopulation and disease, the Sun will eventually stop shining as nicely as it does. Then we're fucked anyways.
In the meantime, I'll have the greatest linear cock of all time. leo - okfinally got around to reading those linked sites. True that our energy consumption has gone up a lot, but those stats are also from 5 years ago. I don't think that we're using a whole lot less yet, but market pressures can do wonders.
For example, the gas price in 2001 was between 50 and 70 cents per litre. [Link] they are around $1/litre or more. So in 5 years we've seen almost a doubling in gas prices. This kind of thing really encourages conservation.
Pro jections of energy consumption for the next 20 years based on current conditions are not particularly useful if we realize that the current market conditions are not sustainable. When the price soars, things will turn around pretty damn quick.
Your response to steve is kinda all over the place, so mine is too.
How do advances in medicine help the environment? And contraception... not even gonna get into that. :)
Growth does rely to a certain extent on population, but since when is growth the ultimate goal? Sustainability should be the goal, not endless growth.
Anyway, aren't you just the perpetual pessimist. We're all doomed! *sigh* *moan*
PS. Why is the answer to your skill testing question never 42? Merriman - Sheldon... ever heard of soylent green? I think it solves all your problems and then some. sheldong - marketsThe stats are old, and while its true that the price of gas has gone up, so has the price of everything else! It hasn't changed that gas is affordable, cheap, and usually the only practical means of getting around North America.
A lot of people aren't going to get up and say, I'm just going to take the bus today because its just so damned convenient for me.
I'm not a perpetual pessimist because as I don't reiterate what the peak oil people keep going on about to sell books - describing some sort of post-apocalyptic society starved of oil.
You say our oil consumption is unsustainable. Perhaps population growth is also unsustainable. Screw peak oil, maybe we should be talking about peak people?
We have finite amounts of arable land just as we have finite amounts of oil.
Populations with advanced medicine, education and contraception generally don't see the need to breed to support their lifestyle and the population levels out. At least that's what it seems to be happening.
I don't think anybody of any clout has ever thought about sustainability in a serious way.
42 never comes up because the question is rand(0,10) + rand(0,10) . Doing additions up to the 40's and 50's is way over my head :) This way its easier for me to write a post !
And yeah, I have heard of Soylent Green, and I think its about time we ate algae and plankton. But maybe not people just yet. Brian - Engine SwapI think someone should come up with a swapable electric engine. Where you can buy an engine swap out your old gas gusler and put in your new electric. There are so many old cars sitting around with perfectly fine drive trains and frames and shotty engines that this could be done to. The question isn't really about whether the technology exists, it's about the availibility of the product and consumer appeal.
Convincing people to buy a new car for 30k and up is going to be a tricky business on an unproven technology with sketchy consumer support at best. How much of that high price tag is simply the cost of the car itself and not the new engine.
sheldong - electric retrofitThat's a pretty wicked plan. (But I don't know anything about the mechanics involved so I can't comment on the feasibility)
I think the reason you don't see more of a push to get electric motors in old frames might be the batteries - they cost a hell of a lot, probably enough to make the savings resulting from using already existing bodies not look very impressive.
This will probably change though, then you'll see more incentive to provide that sort of thing.
The coolest car ever would be one of those old boats with bench seats driven by electricity. I'm tired of the bucket seat and stupidly designed interiors.
I drove an 83 malibu at one time, it felt like I was driving a motorized couch around town. You don't find pimpmobiles like that being built these days. Its way better than the sardine can feeling you get in most newer cars now. Brian - BatteriesYou're right. Batteries are way expensive. A lithiem ion (sp?) battery powerful enough to run a car for a couple hundred km's on one charge currently runs at well over the 8k mark. This is mostly due to the lack of interest and thereby lack of production. The price on these babies could go down as much as half if there were sufficient interest in my opinion. Retrofitting an old beast for 5 or 6k and not having to pay for fuel is a pretty wicked option. But again not feasible with the current price of the batteries. leo - peak oily> The stats are old, and while its true that the price of gas has gone up, so has the price of everything else!
The price of gas has little to do with inflation. Since when is inflation something like 20%/year?
> A lot of people aren't going to get up and say, I'm just going to take the bus today because its just so damned convenient for me.
Sure they are. It just depends what price will push them over the edge. Every major gas hike comes with an increased interest in alternative transportation. Suddenly businesses selling electric scooters or bikes see a big jump in sales.
> You say our oil consumption is unsustainable. Perhaps population growth is also unsustainable.
Uh . Yes, of course. I don't think anyone believes otherwise.
> Screw peak oil, maybe we should be talking about peak people?
Well I think people [Link] have [Link] been [Link] talking about that for decades.
Not what I would call a new concept.
> Populations with advanced medicine, education and contraception generally don't see the need to breed to support their lifestyle and the population levels out.
So what are you worried about? No faith in the education level of our people?
Shawn - The Solution to EnergyI could write a whole article on the solution I see to the environmental problems of develope countries but Im not going to here. It requires very little technological developement and a lot of changes to building codes. Leo - Leo's last theoremI also have a truly marvelous solution to the energy problems of developed countries, which this text box is too narrow to contain... sheldong - fermatSometimes I wonder if Fermat actually knew what the hell he was doing or was just talking big.
In any case, I will have to remember to write some outrageous claims down before I die. "I made a room temperature superconductor with ordinary household items! I'll write down the ingredients later!"
What I mean by people not taking the bus is that transit systems currently suck,lots people live incredibly far apart and I don't see how any rise in gas prices will make that change overnight. We can't just move the suburbs downtown and call it a day.
I know I'm not the only Malthusian [Link] around. Lots of people thought the world would be uncomfortably overpopulated by now if not covered in famine.
I don't see overpopulation becoming a problem in my lifetime, if it is going to be a problem. What I do claim however that an overall reduction in population would do far more for the earth than Kyoto ever could.
Take whatever amount of money we were to spend implementing Kyoto, and invest it in cargo planes full of Durex and example bananas. The masses can educate themselves, eat the bananas then get it on without worry. Dan - fermat & bananasDennis hates bananas. Tebo - Infrastructure
Canada is far more suceptible to the doomsday problem, along with the US, than the rest of the world.
Our 'New World' was developed during the Industrial Revolution, and, as such, does not base infrastructure around horse and carriage or being able to walk from home to work to the market and back again. We allow idiotic amounts of distance between these places. Suburbs being the worst offender. Europe, as an example, has adapted central train systems and urban residential zones into the middle of cities. Attempts to do the same in Vancouver are considered successful if not very outlandish: "Who wants to LIVE downtown.. don't these people have cars?"
Bottom line, peak oil is a reality and there will be NO QUICK solution to replace combustion driven vehicles. Bottom line. Batteries take oil to produce, furthermore, how much Lithium do you have on hand? Enough to make enough giant car batteries to replace each vehicle keeping the North American economy alive? We need these things to bring supplies into city centers, to get people to work and to get the kids to school. If there is no magic car replacement (And I challenge you to find a Thermodynamics prof who think there is) what has to give? I seriously challenge you to think hard and long about that one.
Most likely it will be our infrastructure. Urban residential sites will become the norm. Smaller communities with more centralized levels of supply will be developed. Anything that can be done in the community will be done, we will not have the transportable energy sources to afford imports that are not entirely neccessary. It will be a decline of globilization. I think it will be a good thing in the end, but a bloody mess when the masses have no food, no transportation and noone to baby their existence.
Of course, if some smart country develops military might not dependent on oil supply, that will make things interesting. While North America is trying to pronounce 'MagLev' and qwell large city riots, countries like Germany and Japan may not have such difficulties.
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