Dan the Man - Yah, I heard a ton of stories about how corrupt the liberals are when I worked for Revenue Canada last summer. These two guys I worked with had been trying for years to take the fall for various liberal screw-ups, in exchange for generous retirement packages. The corruption would usually just get covered up, though, and they'd be stuck in the crappy jobs they hated. Merriman - GSTGST ranks up there as one of the best things the conservatives have done for us - right up there with free trade. Everyone forgets that the massive debts started with Trudeau. Even Chretien later admitted that the GST was incredibly neccessary, and it would've been impossible to balance the budget, otherwise.
Mulroo ny may have been the Conservative version of Chretien - scandles, scandles everywhere - but if everyone is forgiving Martin for Chretien's corruption, why won't they forgive Harper for Mulroony's? It makes even less sense when you consider how many degrees of separation Harper has from Mulroony. I doubt he was even in the party when Mulroony was in power, yet Martin was Chretien's finance minister.
(PS. I haven't had a good argument in a while and I'm hoping the first sentence will get me in a free trade argument with Devon.) sheldong - necessary evilI think the GST may be a necessary evil. Even the most effective income tax evaders end up paying some GST. Mostly.
It's been around so long that people have stopped bitching, so may as well leave it alone. Setting GST and PST to 5% would surely make the math easier to do, though.
I don't think we're going to see much argument from the left crowd. They're allergic to thinking pragmatically. They are addicted to the idea that absolutely ANY problem can be solved by a government program funded by increasing tax revenue.
At the same time, NAFTA is fucked. The USA broke the treaty and lost the case. The contract is now null and void, and we can do anything we want now. Basically, we need more people to sell goods to. NAFTA should be renamed WAWTD, for "Whatever America Wants To Do". If we had more customers, we wouldn't have to suck up on this one for so long. Devon - I'm more concerned with your inability to spell Mulroney correctly, Steve. sheldong - there's a counterargument in there somewhere. sheldong - maybe? Leo - GSTI don't care about the GST. Maybe because I've grown up with it, but I really don't give a damn. I just want to see a law passed that forces store all products to be labelled with taxes included. Seriously, I don't give a damn if you have a 50% tax on something but don't tell me you're gonna sell it to me for $10 when its actually going to be $15.
sheldong - taxes includedI think they don't include prices just to mess with our minds. But this is a good thing.
Inevitably , someone is going to say "Oh, we forgot to include tax in our advertised price, sorry" at the cashier - essentially claiming to undercut the competition while being a simple ploy to get you in the store. Could take em to court, nobody would.
The second thing is that people anywhere near the border reading a flyer would get the idea that things are exceptionally cheaper in the US. (At least 7% cheaper!)
Basical ly, with taxes included people would assume that it is the price paid to the producer of the product, and it would be hard to make sure producers all pay by the same rules. Especially when it comes to international trade.
Think of Canadian online stores. The last thing they would want to do is include GST if you happen to be in another country and surfing the site. Yes, you could have a button saying "click here if you actually live outside of canada" but people don't pay attention to these things. (People outside Canada never have to pay GST - tourists can claim all GST expenses back from the government, just look at all the kiosk setups in airports)
Not including tax in the price makes life easier for stupid people (and all people are stupid) and also reminds everyone just how much the government is scraping off all your purchases.
Half the country would forget entirely about sales taxes if it wasn't on the receipt. sheldong - variable taxesIncluding tax also doesn't allow for changing the tax level.
Imagine you labelled all your thousands of products with 14% sales tax and suddenly the tax jumped to 20%.
You would probably kill the prime minister.
Brian - Change UpCareful, switching up the governemt just might cause it to stall. Regardless of how corrupt the liberals are, the fact that they've been in so long will make it really hard for the conservatives to ever hold a majority vote. People have long memories. If they do get in it will be a minority and after a short term ended in a no-confidence vote it'll cycle back and forth as people get more and more frustrated that nothing's being accomplished. Better the communist you know than the dictator you don't. Thats my theory. tim - i vote for sheldon sheldong - minority governmentsYes, by switching up governments you run the risk of getting a ton of minority governments. This will put us in a similar situation as Germany, and yes, it won't get all that much done.
But we already do have a minority government that will never find the respect it needs to form a majority - the only viable candidate to form the next majority is the conservative party. Unless Martin cures cancer or something.
Basica lly, people remain tied to the Liberal party not out of any allegiance to its leadership but more out of paranoia towards the conservatives. This is not sustainable. The Liberals may find themselves in the same boat the PC Party was in after Mulroney left.
Democracy is the least efficient form of government. If we wanted pure efficiency, we should be aiming for benevolent dictatorship, for sure. But that requires an impossibly capable and trustworthy leader. Money and power corrupt, and we've seen its effects first hand.
Lets look at the scenario of a conservative minority:
-The Bloc will not give a shit. Since when did the Bloc give a shit about anything?
-The Liberals will shut the hell up about everything. The Liberals will not try and put forward a non-confidence motion unless they are very damn sure they won't get owned.
-The NDP will play along, unless they gain official opposition status (For this to happen, the Liberal Party needs to die) For the most part, they will not force an election for fear of siding with the Liberals (Well, they've already done that. But backing them on a non-confidence motion would be like bending over and giving the Liberal Party a rimjob) Melanie - I'm with Tim: Sheldon for PM leo - tax price bs> Including tax also doesn't allow for changing the tax level.
Good! I'd rather keep it at 14 instead of 20 thankyouverymuch
Tax included in the price works fine in lots of countries and makes it easier for the consumer to know how much they're actually gonna be set back for their trip to the grocery store.
If a store "forgets" to include the tax in the price, people will get pissed off at them, and they'll get a friendly visit from the BBB. Also, products from other countries are regulated already. They have to include english labelling and a list of ingredients. Setting the final price is trivial.
leo - oh yeahJust noticed something interesting.. I ordered a bunch of stuff from MEC, and got charged PST and GST on every item, except for some bicycle fenders!
Does this mean the government is actually beginning to offer incentives on alternate transportation? That would friggen rock! sheldong - for PMThat's it, im running in the next election.
My healthcare policies will include free beer, red wine, real butter and green tea for everybody! sheldong - GST revisitedBut fixing the tax rate doesn't allow for it to be lowered. Meaning, lowered without stores not bothering to cut their prices - "People have been paying $5 for this item since the beginning of time! I'm not changing it! I'll just take the difference for myself!". When prices are included, lowering taxes just forces inflation.
If the government has so much cash floating around that they manage to lose a few billion here and there to frivolous schemes, then we're ready for a tax break.
I think Germany includes their sales tax, but I don't see this as a good thing. It shields people from the Real Price Of Shit. I'd rather see the real price first, then figure out what sales tax laws, either VAT/GST/whatever apply after the fact. Then we can all swear at stupid parliament or bloedes bundestag together.
The fenders thing brings up another topic, as far as I know, PST is not applied to food and a whole lot of goods. Changing the rules this way (alt. trans. incentives would be a fine example) also renders including the price a serious pain in the ass for retailers.
Say the states has a sales tax of 20%, and we have a sales tax of 10%. Including everything in the tax price, the government has their hand in everywhere. Is one country more inflationary than the other, or is the government just being bigger whores? It's harder to tell with included taxes and different applications of said taxes.
Basically, including taxes would make your trip to small town grocery and shoe stores easier, but it would make anything else an exception pain in the ass ("No, Bobby from Alberta, see the BC Govt makes us include PST in the price on our website. Yes, you'll have to do a 7% deduction in your head. Or click the 'People in Alberta' button its right beside the 'People within Canada but not in Alberta or the Maritimes' , 'People within the Maritimes' and 'People outside Canada' buttons" - Bobby from Alberta's head exploded soon after) Merriman - GSTI don't see the downside of a minority government, be it Conservative or Liberal. Minority governments are about staying the course. Canada's doing quite well right now and there's no reason to rock the boat. Minority governments prevent radical decisions: ie, missle defense, privatized healthcare, withdrawing from NAFTA, placing counteracting duties on American imports. Plus, minority governments have the benefit of seeing a wide variety of MP's with varying interests: don't forget that the Conserative MP John Duncan was the only one who continually brought up the softwood lumber issue, well before any of the other MP's in Ottawa had any clue what softwood lumber was.
That being said, I'd still perfer a Conservative minority. They wouldn't be able to rock the boat too much, but they'd make far better budget decisions than the liberals: gun registry? sponsorship scandal? 1+ billion in reparations for natives who were discriminated against? Ick. tim - why don't we just rename ourselves Switzerland while we're at it. anonymous - Conservatives are just super for middle income straight males from small towns with small minds who like to stand around gesticulating and posturing because they have no idea what it is like to be hungry, raped, homeless, paid less because of their gender, or told they may not marry the one they love.
Go ahead and respond with posturing and gesticulating about tax but I bet you have never suffered any of the above. Merriman - Conservatives.I see.
So, what exactly do the Liberals or NDP bring to the table that help the hungry, raped, homeless and gender discriminated? Merriman - Conservatives part deuxI'm actually surprised you didn't bring the environment into that argument, somehow. Okay, let's make your emotionaly compassionate plea complete:
Conserv atives are just super for middle income straight males from small towns with small minds who like to stand around gesticulating and posturing because they have no idea what it is like to be hungry; raped; homeless; sick because of black smoke from factories; pregnant because your abortion rights have been taken away; suffering from some secret conservative agenda that even you don't know about; but are certain is opressing you; paid less because of their (sic) gender; or told they (sic) may not marry the (sic) one they (sic) love.
You, sir or madame, have the soul of a poet. You just need an editor. Hire me and we'll go places. Touchy-Feely people's rights places.
leo - (sic)> paid less because of their (sic) gender; or told they (sic) may not marry the (sic) one they (sic) love.
That word.... I don't think it means what you think it means...
Actually, what DO you think it means?? sheldong - speaking of words...I love that post.
As soon as I get home im looking up "gesticulating" in the dictionary.
More on this later. Canīt write much now. Mexico. anonymous - You Merriman, are ignorant, and suggest that you would be incapable of editing a comic strip. Merriman - Who, me?"You Merriman, are ignorant, and suggest (sic) that you would be incapable of editing a comic strip."
Well, maybe I am. I did however ask for enlightenment, which you didn't provide. In all seriousness, your post made me wonder three things:
1) What the NDP or Liberals bring to the table that would help the hungry, raped, homless, and gender-discriminated .
2) What the Conservatives bring to the table that would harm these people.
3) Why you feel you have to insult conservative supporters to get your point across.
So, please enlighten me. I'll just be here gesticulating, you know, despite the fact that this is the internet and I can't use body language effectively. Or wave my hands around and type at the same time, for that matter.
Merriman - sic(sic)
Thus; so. Used to indicate that a quoted passage, especially one containing an error or unconventional spelling, has been retained in its original form or written intentionally.
I went a little crazy the first post, but this is my reasoning:
"... told they (sic) may not marry the (sic) one they (sic) love."
Okay, so a group of people are trying to marry a single person? Its either "he/she may not marry the one he/she loves", or "they may not marry the ones they love".
As for the other one, I was a little overzealous and I promise not to quit my day job. It probably pays a little better than editing, anyway.
sheldong - to the trollI know anonymous is trying to raise shit, and I love them for that. I know I shouldn't respond because it's not like I'm arguing with someone that will be able to counter it.
But I'll throw my 2 cents in , just for shits and giggles.
As for the raped - ultraconservatives would rip out the intestines of rapists and hang them up by their privates.
Under bleeding heart left governments, rape is blamed on bad childhoods and socioeconomic problems. Have you ever heard of Karla Holmoka? She's probably your pro-Liberal neighbour!
As for the homeless - yes, its nice that the Liberals have taken care of the homeless problem for us.
Paid less because of their gender? Of course! Because, as you know, every corporation and government institution does do that as it is perfectly legal.
Marrying the one you love? Get with the times, marriage means nothing.
I'm sure you mean well, but making the rest of the world suffer through your bullcrap isn't doing anybody any favours! anonymous - "I was raped last weekend but everything is well now after I read a bunch of left-wing rhetoric!"
Almost as good as reading some Trotsky and going for a walk around the block, innit? anonymous - Ahhh, it must be nice to be young and know everything - or is it frustrating trying to teach the rest of the world from your tender and coddled twenty-something state? good luck to all of you. Keep thinking ...especially BEFORE you all speak. sheldong - what would the kids do?Covered this one already : [Link] |
Elections are generally entertaining wastes of time that try to give the public the impression they somehow have a say in how the government is run.